SAVE THE WARTHOG!

"Dukie - Jalopnik Emergency Management Asshole" (Dukie)
08/19/2013 at 09:54 • Filed to: Planelopnik, A-10, Save the Warthogs

Jalopnik's favorite gun with wings is on the chopping block, again.

The Department of Defense is looking to replace the A-10 with the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. Now, I may be biased, as I used to work on the A-10, but the F-35 is not a viable replacement. I have friends who are Joint Terminal Attack Controllers (JTACs) who are USAF personnel embedded with Army units. These are the guys calling in "danger close" airstrikes, or as Michael Bay had Tyrese Gibson say, "Bring the Rain" (you will be punched in the throat if you say that around them, just an FYI). A JTAC who is currently deployed said on the " !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , "...this airframe is our bred (sic) and butter and has saved countless lives. Funny thing is I've never seen these things sit on the flight line for MX issues like I have F-15s or even F-22s. (I like F-15s though)".

So, someone who loves A-10's, has started a petition on the Whitehouse's " !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! " site, to try and keep the A-10 around. I've signed the petition (#101), and I hope some Jalops will as well.

DISCUSSION (25)

SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman > Dukie - Jalopnik Emergency Management Asshole
08/19/2013 at 09:59

Sometimes, you have to know when to move on... I don't know enough about the subject matter to give an informed opinion, so I wont.

I think it's also very dangerous in matters of national security and budget to make decisions based on sentiment (A-10 over JSF) and not.

Objectively speaking, and I seriously am inquiring, how is the A-10 better than the JSF?

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > Dukie - Jalopnik Emergency Management Asshole
08/19/2013 at 10:00

#104

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman
08/19/2013 at 10:02

low, slow, and durable.

Goshen, formerly Darkcode > Dukie - Jalopnik Emergency Management Asshole
08/19/2013 at 10:06

Can the F-35 actually cover the A-10's role or is this just Lockheed Martin pulling shit of their collective ass because American politicians are way too retarded to see its interest?

McMike > Dukie - Jalopnik Emergency Management Asshole
08/19/2013 at 10:06

Thank you for calling it by it's proper name.

Warthog is an ugly, mean name for an mean, ugly plane.

Kinja'd!!!

PelicanHazard > Dukie - Jalopnik Emergency Management Asshole
08/19/2013 at 10:09

I am of the opinion that the existing A-10s are very old and should be replaced...by new-manufacture A-10s or a very similar design. The F-35 is too fragile to do what the Thunderbolt II does.

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > Dukie - Jalopnik Emergency Management Asshole
08/19/2013 at 10:10

what are MX issues?

SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
08/19/2013 at 10:16

How are the 1st two better? You're not answering my question....

Is the JSF also that much less durable? Also isn't it better suited for modern duty than the Warthog?

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman
08/19/2013 at 10:20

It can fly in much slower and lower than the jsf this can make it easier to hit the targets. The A-10 can and has flown back with an engine and a wing destroyed, and is not as dependent on computers to fly.

Dukie - Jalopnik Emergency Management Asshole > Dukie - Jalopnik Emergency Management Asshole
08/19/2013 at 10:22

MX = Maintenance.

ttyymmnn > SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman
08/19/2013 at 10:23

Dukie could probably answer the question better, but I believe that it has to do with design. The F-35, I think, will turn out to be a jack of all trades but master of none. It's the Pentagon's silver bullet and pipe dream, one plane that will serve every role of multiple services. It's costing a shit-ton of money to produce, so to keep it, they've got to save money somewhere else, and they think (hope) the F-35 can do the same job as the A-10, and do it with technology rather than physics.

While the F-35 is a multi-role aircraft, The A-10 was designed for one mission: destroy targets on the ground, specifically Russian tanks. That's it. It's not a dogfighter, it's not a reconnaissance plane. Its straight wing makes it very maneuverable at low speeds. It's protected from ground fire. It has two engines to bring the pilot home. It flies low and slow, it's not pretty, but there's nothing else that can loiter over the battlefield and wait on station until it's needed. And then, it can bring enormous firepower with incredible accuracy. Hell, there was even talk of using these things to fight forest fires.

This isn't the first time the A-10 has been on the chopping block. When the Cold War ended, and there was no longer a threat of Russian tanks storming through the Fulda Gap, the Pentagon thought we could mothball them. But then Desert Shield/Storm rolled around, and they discovered that there was a gaping hole in their capability, that nothing could destroy tanks and support the troops on the ground like the A-10. So it saw a resurgence. But budget concerns now threaten the Warthog again. We'll see what happens, but I'd hate to see it go.

SpeedSix > Dukie - Jalopnik Emergency Management Asshole
08/19/2013 at 10:34

I'm surprised you don't even have to be American to make a White House account and sign petitions. Anyway, #113.

EDIT: Just noticed a lot of petition signers without listed American cities, probably from other countries as well.

Dukie - Jalopnik Emergency Management Asshole > SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman
08/19/2013 at 10:38

In a Close Air Support (CAS) role, you want a couple of things.

1. Low(er) speed. Speed isn't life in CAS. Being able to observe the target(s) and friendlies makes you a deadlier asset than speed. Sure, an F-15/F-16 can make it to the fight faster, but they only get to play for 10-20 minutes before they're too "thirsty". The A-10 can hang out, like a bouncer looking for a fight. Which leads me to...

2. Loiter time. The A-10 can be "On Station" for quite a long time. Combine that with the 1174 rounds of 30mm, and 16,000 lbs of fixed ordinance, and you've got the ability to stay in the fight for a long time.

3. Survivability. As others have said, the A-10 is one tough sonuvabitch. If YC did a rap song about the A-10, it would be something like, "Systems on systems on systems." It takes a ton of damage to bring down an A-10 (as has been proven by pilots during Desert Storm and Iraqi Freedom". It can also be repaired quickly to put a damaged plane back into service. When you get into composite materials and LO coatings, it takes much longer to repair any damage, if it can be repaired.

It's not so much a sentimental reason to keep the A-10, I've met many people who sing it's praises as it's "Saved my ass when we were *insert battle lingo/information here".

It's like trying to use a pipe wrench to remove your oil filter. It might work if you force it, but you're gonna mess something up.

Dukie - Jalopnik Emergency Management Asshole > Goshen, formerly Darkcode
08/19/2013 at 10:50

Could it? Maybe. I mean, F-15, 16 & 18s have been doing some CAS in Afghanistan & Iraq (when we were still "actively" fighting there). But they lack the specialized abilities that the A-10 has.

Bakkster, touring car driver > SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman
08/19/2013 at 11:01

Simplest answer: the JSF is more similar to the F15, F16, F/A18, etc, rather than to the A10. Same reasons we use A10s instead of F16s apply to why we would use A10s instead of JSFs.

More specifically, if the aircraft does take fire, an A10 will likely be cheaper to repair since it doesn't have expensive stealth. It also doesn't need to be stealth if you're shooting a .50 Cal at some guys hanging out in some trees.

Grindintosecond > Dukie - Jalopnik Emergency Management Asshole
08/19/2013 at 11:05

Here we go again. It appears the people that remember the reason for the A-10 have since retired/died off and the replacements have no clue for the reason to keep it. They are trying to make the JSF the swiss army knife of the whole military. The problem is that no single plane can do everything. They tried it with the F-111 and the F-4 Phantom. The F-111 was proven to statistically loose every engagement against all world enemies because it was 100,000 lbs in weight and had so much (gold) systems built into it it wouldn't turn out of it's own way. The F-4? Oh great lets make a plane with out a gun cause missiles are superior but they actually don't work well so well build into it everything possible to be aftermarket additions. They got the F-16 right but guess what? The prototype will shoot down the production model day and night because they added (gold) multi-role systems to it without giving it a bigger wing to handle the weight. So, let's take a dedicated close support plane out of service and replace it with the JSF multi-role all in one modern day F-111. I'd like to see a combat gun/bomb range comparison against the A-10 and the JSF and laugh wildly as the A-10 beats it down in every test score including durability. A-10 can loose half a wing, an elevator, rudder, engine and still fly back to base. The JSF is a fragile egg. Laser guided precision is great until you need a BFG.....

Grindintosecond > Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs
08/19/2013 at 11:10

Maintenance Issues.

The A-10 has engines that are commercially used engines just built to Military spec. So engines from airline service (Canadair regional jet sources them too) and very easy field repairable parts. Think of a tractor built to do every single job your farm could ever need done vs. adapting a wizz bang Prius to do a farm job. Something breaks? Tractor will be running in a half hour. Prius? Well you go find some parts made of electrons and magic.

Brian Tschiegg > SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman
08/19/2013 at 11:12

I would refer you to Die Hard and every other movie the F-35 has been featured in. They blow up all over the place.

I joke though. The reality is that the F-35 is still untested, much more expensive to operate, and less suited to our current needs for air support. The A-10 has been a proven asset to combat operations all over the world. Despite their slow speeds, they are much more suited to providing air cover for our troops. The F-35 is more attractive to politicians though because it is still being built meaning it gets them votes in districts where it creates jobs.

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > Grindintosecond
08/19/2013 at 11:20

ah gotcha, thanks for the clarification.

apr10427 - Greedo never fired > Dukie - Jalopnik Emergency Management Asshole
08/19/2013 at 11:23

First of all, any petition intended to make a decision of any kind for the military will never fly, pun intended. It would be like the Army creating an iPad game to control battlefield tactics in realtime.

Second, the A-10 is old. Not B-52 old, but they are relatively small in number and maintaining the spares production line is difficult. It's my understanding that currently, the USAF, is scavenging parts form old airframes. It has to die at some point. The mission it was intended to fulfill is declining in importance and the F-35's capabilities have not been finalized. Let's wait and see whether the JSF is a capable replacement before we take up arms.

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > Dukie - Jalopnik Emergency Management Asshole
08/19/2013 at 11:27

goes to show how seriously these petitions are taken by the gov't, lol.

TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. > Dukie - Jalopnik Emergency Management Asshole
08/19/2013 at 11:52

I'm guessing that the only reason this is on the chopping block is because some fuckwit politician was asked by his fuckwit friend who works for Lochheed (or stands to make money from the F-35) to get rid of the Warthog in favour of the F-35...

PatBateman > Dukie - Jalopnik Emergency Management Asshole
08/19/2013 at 12:12

The A-10 is an insanely simple, yet effective. Replacing it with an insanely complicated and untested piece of equipment is, quite frankly, insane.

FJ80WaitinForaLSV8 > Dukie - Jalopnik Emergency Management Asshole
08/19/2013 at 12:56

There is a very big assumption here, and that is that the F-35 will ever work properly. I am not convinced. This move further adds to the main problem of the F-35, which is that one plane cannot effectively fill the role of the 5+ planes its designed to replace.

This debate also reminds of the the debate surrounding the permanent decommissioning of the Iowa Class battleships and the Navy's complete lack of naval gun fire support . I find the fact that the biggest naval gun currently fitted to a ship is only 5 inches in diameter to be somewhat concerning.

Atomic Buffalo > Brian Tschiegg
08/19/2013 at 13:53

Solution: build more A-10s :)